2017 Turley Knives Catalog

Guest Blog: Jet pilot knife comparison

My pal Field-expedient  from Bushcraftusa.com recently did a comparison between the new issue
Jet pilot's survival knife and the old style. I thought it was pretty interesting and well done so I asked
if he'd let me share it here. He said "sure", so here it is. Thanks again F.E.!
All pics and info belong to and originate from Field-expedient.


Here is my comparison between an old ontario bolt knife and the new version Ontario A.S.E.K. I had an old bolt knife when I was a kid and since recently getting another here on the trade blanket I thought it would be interesting to try out a new A.S.E.K. and compare it to the old version.

When looking into the A.S.E.K I couldnt find a whole lot of user feedback about it. BCUSA's own machine27 is the only guy I found to have any real experience with one and he told me I would like it. So I snatched a factory 2nd up off ebay for 50 bucks.

not going to list all the specs and stuff but the major changes are pretty obvious. rubber handle, serrations, more aggresive sawback, glass breaker pomel, sheaths, sharpeners, and the clip point is not sharpened.

I have no military experience or training or access to a plane to try and cut my way out of so I figured I would put these to work doing bushcraft and survivaly type stuff. I am much lazier than machine27 in his shootouts so a traded back and forth using each one, I wasnt about to do everything twice lol

The ASEK is new with the factory edge which has a flat gind by the way. The old bolt knife is, well old and I have reprofiled it quite a bit to a very good edge. I started out by batoning down a green shelter pole sized tree. I traded back and forth between the two. Both worked well, the asek a little better. It took deeper bites with the flat grind and the handle was much more comfortable.

after getting it cut down I carved some green wood. the asek worked better even though the serrations dont cut as smooth they were very sharp and the more comfortable handle made it much nicer to use. for notching I used the serrations in a sawing fashion it notched quickly with great control.

splitting wood- both knives worked fine and in spite of the stick tangs they dint break. Both knives having steel pomels made it easy to drive them in tip first on smaller pieces 

feather sticks- affter getting some split wood i made up some feather sticks. I know serrations are junk and you cant do anything "bushcrafty" with them. Sorry guys thats false serrations can make a mean featherstick. asek winner

sawbacks- yes i know they were not made to cut wood, both clogged quickly in green wood but both do work ok in dry wood to kinda notch and grind. The asek better and actually even saws a little. nothing like what i am used to though lol. Still I like having them even if they are not up to par with my homemade ones they have some usefull applications.

Fire- I think mag bars are issued in pilots kits so I used both knives to light the feather sticks with one. A technique i like to use that works well with these knives is to bury the tip into something and scrape the bar back and forth on the spine. It directs the shavings quickly into a nice pile. the bolt knife worked best for this because of its sharpened clip point. the asek done ok its clip is not sharpened but has enough of a square edge to do the job.

more fire- I used both knives to make a bow drill set
I used the glass breaker to beat in a divot to start the drill, It worked great. also note the drill the lines from carvng with serations really worked well the string gripped it like crazy and never slipped

notching the hearth was easier with the asek I sawed it out using the serrations it worked almost as good as a sak saw. I used the sawback on the bolt knife it worked ok on the soft wood then cleaned it up a little with the edge.

just for fun- both knives were pretty dull at this point except the serrated portion of the asek, I figured I would finish them off. Believe it or not I have had to cut a tire or two off a wheel with a knife.

this kind of cutting is when its nice to have grippy handles and guards. the old bolt knife was pretty dull and took some doing to get the tire cut.

the other side may as well of had a zipper the asek's thinner grind and serrations made short work of the tire

at this point the bolt knife was done no real edge left. the serrations on the asek still sharp.

dull knives- I like sharp knives but just to prove a dull knife is better than no knife I carved a few figure 4s. The serrations on the asek once again proved useful still being sharp it sawed the notches in quick and precise. The dull bolt knife still got it done though. 

just to see if these would still cut anything I cut up an old piece of webbing. The bolt knife was done I was able to cut a few pieces but it took lots of pressure and sawing. the asek sailed through it no problem making quick clean cuts on the webbing and even after all of this I think I could have turned around and started all over with the ASEK and it would have kept on cutting.

re-sharpen in field- both knives sharpened up quick with their on board sharpeners. the bolt knife a little quicker with the coarser stone. ASEK took a finer edge with the ceramic rod. Spent about 5 minutes on each and they would pop arm hair and cleanly cut paper.

conclusion- dont knock it until you try it. I am not a big fan or serrations and I know lots of guys hate them, but they have a place. they might not be the best for whittling spoons and what not but on a survival knife I think they may have an advantage this asek out cut the bolt knife in most of my tests and it was due to the serrations. Compared to a factory bolt knife it would have even more so.

This test also backed up another theroy I have been thinking on. serrations vs plain. A serrated blade will give a useable cutting edge much longer than a plain and in a situation when you may not have the time or gear to maintain everything like you would want those searrations will keep sawing and grinding away at things long after a plain edge is all used up and all but useless.

I really like the ASEK it has all kinds or teeth and edges and points and stuff to cut, poke, grind, saw, pound. some guys see that as being tacticool but I think it packs a lot of utillity in a small package

I think the ASEK has many advantages over the old one for the role these knives were designed for. The old bolt knife is a classic though and a fun knife to use thats brings back lots of memories. It has a rich history and is plenty capable enough to earn a spot in anyones collection. It has been getting it done all over the world for a hell of a long time.

thanks

Field-expedient

Defending the Pilot's survival knife

Most of the historical info below comes from two or three great articles written by Frank Trzaska for knifeworld magazine and from Robert Schmeling's great book on the Marble arms and poly-choke company. Thanks to both of those individuals for the information.

There have been lots of U.S. issued pilot's knives throughout history, from the giant folding jack knife of world war two to the Collins 18 machete (later widely known as the Raider bowie). But here I'm just going to throw out some facts and thoughts on what is commonly known as the "Jet pilot's survival knife".

The beginning of the knife we know today as the Jpk (jet pilot knife) started officially in 1952 when the Navy Aeronautic Equipment Board decided a new knife design was needed for pilots. This new knife would be officially called the mil-k-8662 "knife, survival, pilot's".
The specs for this new knife were: 5" blade length, 9 3/4" overall, 1095 parkarized blade, stacked leather handle and guard and pommel were to be of low carbon steel. These were issued from 1953 to 1957 and were not what we know as the "Jet pilot's survival knife". This was it's first form.

In October 1954 Marble's knife company offered improvements to the NAEB on the current pilot's knife. 
Here's what they offered:
A 5" blade based on their Expert model, Sawteeth on the spine, an aluminum hex head pommel (this is the first appearance of the bolt head on a pilot's knife) and a olive drab tenite (type of plastic) handle.
The government, in all of it's wisdom, insisted on a 6" blade. Marble's didn't make an Expert model with a 6" blade so they submitted a 6" Ideal model for review. This is where the famous fullers in the Jpks come from that we all know so well today. The Ideal came standard with fullers in the blade.

Testing of the prototype was conducted by the NAEB, some of which included the knife being able to:
"cut through dense underbrush, drive a nail through a 2" board and saw through an aircraft fuselage."

In August 1957 Marble's offered to make 5,000 jpk's to spec and also allow a government rep to come and learn the process of how they manufactured the knives so that the government could share the information with any maker. Marble's also included all blueprints and specs.
A government rep showed up at the plant in September 1957 to complete the deal.

It's sad to say but Marble's never got the full contract to make the pilot's knives for general issue. When the government opened up bids for the manufacture of the knives a few months later they stipulated that only small companies were allowed to bid, leaving Marble's high and dry. Camillus was awarded the contract.

In 1962, due to complaints from pilots, the blade length was shortened to 5". The same length Marble's originally submitted in the very beginning.

With heightened involvement in the Vietnam war, Milpar was added as a manufacturer around 1962.
Around 1967 the date and maker stamp was moved to the pommel of the knife and is still done that way today.
Around this time Utica was also added as a maker of Jpks. 

Around 1969 Ontario knife co. was added as a manufacturer and is still making the pilots knives today.

So why am I reprinting these facts here? Because the Jet pilot's knife has served a long, distinguished history as not only a combat weapon but more so as a survival tool. These knives have been used successfully by pilots for over 50 years to survive (not pretend survive) in peace time and combat situations. They deserve a spot in the "bushcraft" knife category in my opinion. Probably more so than any other I can think of. More than a woodlore, nessmuck or kephardt knife. Way more. Why? Because of a proven track record, actual evidence. Not opinion given by anyone but real, long lived use. 

I know that they could be better, I hear the boo birds saying that they've seen pilot's knives broken in use. I hear that. Obviously they aren't perfect. They are factory made and anytime you make something in quantity you're going to have a less than ideal product in the end. But the government needs tens of thousands of knives when they need knives. They can't wait years to get a few so they make due with what they can get.

But that doesn't mean the design itself is weak. Not even remotely. The process in which they are made is less than ideal to make the toughest knife possible but the design itself is more than sufficient for any kind of general woods work.

"Hidden tangs are weak, full tangs are much stronger." Heard it a lot. The first part of that statement is not entirely true. Factory hidden tang knives are at times weak because they (by necessity) can't (not won't) pay as much attention to heat treat and construction as a custom maker can. It's just fact. The factory's goal is quantity. 

But, once again, does not make the design itself obsolete. A well made hidden tang is just as strong FOR WOODS WORK as a full tang. Anything you can do in the woods to a knife a well made hidden tang can take. It's strong enough. 
I won't go deep into that aspect because it's a whole other animal. Here's a video on the strength of hidden tangs, seeing is believing. 

"Sawteeth are a gimmick". Heard that a lot too, even said it in my ignorance a time or two. That statement is also generally untrue. 

Some sawteeth work better for wood than others of course but keep in mind that pilot's knives were made to rip (not saw) through aircraft bodies. And not cut a cord's worth of wood.

Sawteeth, at a bare minimum, are no different than file work on a spine of a knife. How many times have you seen people rave (rightfully so) over cool file work on a knife? Ever hear anyone say "filework is useless"? Me neither. Because it's not, it's pleasing to the eye and that's the same way I view sawteeth at a minimum.
Beyond that they are actually useful if you have any initiative at all. Again, I won't get to far into it here so here's a couple videos on saw teeth. Actually using them instead of giving opinions.

"Pommel plates or bolt pommels aren't necessary." Sort of true. Once again, a statement that sounds like fact that's actually just an opinion. The truth is that pommel plates aren't necessary if you don't hit the pommel of your knife with a wooden baton. But are they if you choose to do that? You bet they are. Things break apart if you hit the pommel of your knife and it has no plate or bolt, I know because I've done it a couple of times. 

"Why would I want to hit the pommel of my knife?" I don't know, I can't answer that question for you. All I can tell you is that I find it very valuable for how I use a knife, it turns my knife into a whole other tool. I'm not limiting myself to a few uses, I'm using the knife (that is made to do it) in as many ways as practically possible. 

That's why the bolt is on the jpk, because pilots had a use (many actually) for it.
These knives have been issued to pilots and sere instructors/specialists since they were first contracted. They've been used hard, on a daily basis by those instructors and have performed well given their factory limitations. That's an undeniable fact. 

So to wrap it up, if you've always liked jpks but never tried one because you read a book or heard a master bushcrafter say that- the design is pure fantasy, that guards get in the way (generally not true also), you need a scandi grind, you need a convex grind, sawteeth are useless, and on and on- then I encourage you to rethink it. Find a cheap pilot's knife and give it a try. Then, if you like the design you might (or might not) want to explore a custom made knife that's similar in design, you'll never know unless you try for yourself. You may be surprised how well they actually do work despite what the experts say.

God bless and thanks for reading,
Iz

                                       The Sacred knife

    Use the right tool for the job! How often have you heard or read that statement? I see it pretty frequently on message boards and youtube. There’s other gems too like, “don’t  ever baton your knife” or “ a knife is for cutting and that’s it” and “That‘s knife abuse!” (like it‘s a child or something). Lots of ‘em and I hear them over and over and over again.

     I don’t understand it. I could possibly understand it if we were living in something like the early 1900’s maybe but I can’t figure out why so many people insist on sticking  to such a narrow view of knives in today’s world. We have a glut of steels today that will take a beating and come back for more, we have precise heat treat methods and metallurgy that makes a knife even more useful than ever before for many different tasks. We have makers who understand how to make a knife both tough and efficient in cutting. Today, right here and now (and for some time), we have knives being made that are THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB.

     Almost whatever job you need a knife to do (keeping it’s realistic properties in mind. It won’t fly you to the moon no matter how good the heat treat) a knife can be built to do it. Cutting, batoning, prying, chopping etc. All doable and many knives will have more than one of those abilities built into it. (some properties exclude one another of course. Like a needle sharp piercing tip isn't going to be a good prying knife. More on that in a later blog post.)

     I don’t say that because someone I love and trust told me, I say it because I build knives like that nearly everyday. And I’m not alone, many makers do and there are even some very fine knife manufacturers that make knives to do many jobs including “hard use”.

    We all love our granddads and those who taught us about the woods when we were young, I get that. But I’m gonna say something that I hope you know isn't meant to be disrespectful to anyone, especially my elders. Here goes: Sometimes, grandpa didn't  know what the heck he was talking about. There I said it. And it’s true. Just like sometimes I don’t know what I’m talking about and sometimes you don’t know what you’re talking about. It happens.  We’re human and imperfect.

     Many grandpas, from what I've read countless times on forums, it seems have told their young grand sons to “never abuse your knife”. I’d say that’s good advice. But what is abuse? Is it abuse to baton with a knife that’s made to do it? I doubt grandpa was that closed minded. So how come we are? How come there’s such a large contingent of knife people out there who get near fighting mad when they see someone baton a knife?

   Maybe it’s because they've seen one to many young whippersnappers take his brand new knife and try to bust it through an 8” knotty piece of red elm. Which usually takes said whippersnapper five or more minutes to do and after the deed is finally done he proclaims it a good knife. I've seen those videos too and I agree, it’s less than a good advertisement for the practice of batoning with a knife. But does that mean it’s knife abuse in and of itself? Of course not. It just means the whippersnapper doesn't know anything about wood selection or he’s intentionally trying to push his knife. So what? Why does anyone care enough to get mad about it? It’s ridiculous.

    It’s like we can’t just be middle of the road on anything these days, we have to stick to one extreme or the other. Or we have to find some little nit picky thing to argue about. Why is that? Why does the grandpa knife guy get red in the face and start throwing insults when he sees the whippersnapper beating on his knife? Does it affect the grandpa knife guy in any way? Nope. It makes no sense.

    I’m getting off track. Back to the point. Knives today can be made for very hard use, not be overly thick, be excellent slicers and still keep on going. It’s a fact. Undeniably so. If you don’t believe me just check out my youtube channel. Turley knives on youtube

    So that leaves us with knives that aren't made for hard use. There’s a lot of them, even in today’s day and time. Lots of factory knives just won’t hold up to prying and batoning. Why? Because they aren't made for it. It’s not because they can’t be made for it, it’s because they are not made for it. They are made for other reasons and tasks. Some of those reasons and tasks include, to look cool, for skinning and gutting, for meat cutting, for kitchen work etc. All of which are viable reasons in my opinion.

  If you’re using one of those knives to beat through some twisted Osage orange then I’d agree with the grandpa knife guy, you’re abusing your knife and it’s probably gonna break. (But I wouldn't get red in the face mad and call you an idiot). But that doesn't mean that ALL KNIVES are to be laid on a pillow and only unsheathed to cut some cordage in camp.

    Many of these knives can still be used to baton if you use your head. I've used a hollow handle Ka-bar , built before ww2, to baton with. I've even used a pocket knife to baton with and neither broke. How come? Wood selection. Straight grained, knot free wood generally splits if you look at it mean. Check out some of the videos by my buddy Mr. Black at Operational Extras sometime to see what I’m talking about. He’s a master wood selector.

     In bushcraft/woodcraft we often proclaim the need to have multi use items. A piece of aluminum foil for a signal device and to mold into a container to boil water. A psk tin to hold your items, boil water in and to signal with when you shine up the lid.
We do that with nearly everything….except knives. Why do we stop short and refuse to use our knives for multiple tasks?

    I honestly don’t know what makes people tick and why the grandpa guys react the way they do. I’ll venture a guess, keep in mind it’s just a guess and worth pretty much nothing. But it’s still something worth trying to figure out.

   I think they get so personally hurt by it because they feel attacked or that grandpa is being questioned. Let me ‘splain, Lucy.

   We all (probably most of us anyway) love our grandpas and those who took the time to share knife skills and the woods with us. So when grandpas rules (whether real or perceived) get ignored or attacked then it’s the equivalent of attacking grandpa in some people’s minds. They freak out because Grandpa was a good man (and of course a “bushcrafter before he ever heard the term“) and it’s seen as an attack on him. (It’s either that or they’re judgmental jerks who think it’s their way or the highway and I prefer to think that‘s not the case. )

 It’s not an attack on grandpa. It’s got nothing to do with your view or my view being attacked in most cases. It’s just a person doing what they enjoy with their own knives. I don’t see any rational reason to get mad at a guy for doing what we all want to do, having fun using his knives. I bet grandpa would smile at that.

  A couple of videos if you're skeptical.
Here's the Hollow handle Ka-bar I mentioned:

Here's a pocket knife split wood fire

Here's some knife true knife abuse

See you next time if you're still reading.
God bless, Iz
Romans 10:9

The Bushcraft check list

This was an article I wrote for the first issue of Bushcraft U.S.A. magazine. Hope you like it.

                                                 

  Photo by: Xmp. A very cool dude. 

     



      Never heard of the bushcraft checklist? That’s because it’s not really a tangible thing. There’s nothing of it written down anywhere, you can’t send off to Ray Mears and get one to hang on your wall or stick in your pack but it does exist. You've probably seen evidence of it and may unknowingly use it yourself at times. It usually goes something like this:
1. Learn to build a fire. 2. Learn the chest lever knife grip, the hammer grip, the reverse super high energy chest grip and all other conceivable knife grips 3. Learn the bow and drill friction fire method 4. Learn the bow and drill using natural cordage. And on and on up the mythical bushcraft skills ladder.

     It’s the unwritten list that some feel they have to follow in order to be taken seriously, to be respected. You can see this phenomenon displayed in internet posts and youtube videos at times, it’s subtle but it’s there. Every skill that is learned is posted up in still or moving pictures for posterity’s sake and then checked off the list. Once all the skills on the list are learned (not necessarily mastered)  then the person feels like they have arrived at some peak that has eluded them until this point. They’re at the top of the skills and knowledge ladder in the bushcraft community and now all is well, they will be looked at with respect. All this usually happens without the individual even knowing it.

     In my opinion that list is worthless. Plain and simple a waste of time and energy. Not the skills themselves but the perceived or real peer pressure that created the list in the first place. Everyone wants to measure up and be accepted in their chosen hobby or profession and bushcraft is no exception. I don’t look down on anyone who is on the journey of checking off all the skills on the bushcraft list. I do feel bad for them though, I feel bad that they might be missing the entire point of it all. Missing what probably brought them to these skills in the first place; the woods and the love of being there. I’m afraid that they are concentrating so hard on completing the list that they’re missing the trees and the forest all in one smooth pass and that’s a tragedy.

     I’m not a list teetotaler by any means myself, I don’t want you to come away thinking that. I have my own list and it goes something like this:

1. Go to the woods. 2. Have fun. That’s about it. Any skill I practice is for fun or what I consider a requirement for myself because of the area I live in. Not because it‘s on the accepted, official bushcraft list. And when I practice those skills I have fun. I won’t practice something that does me no good or that I see as unnecessary for having a good time in the woods.

 Here’s an example: The hand drill would be a skill that is high on the bushcraft list but near the bottom of mine. Why you ask? First of all because I’m lazy and the hand drill method looks like to much work and secondly because I always have cordage or can make cordage for the bow and drill method. Yeah, yeah, I know there’s always a chance I’ll get dropped buck naked (nobody wants to see that) into a wilderness that has no cordage plants whatsoever but I don't rely on the friction fire method in the first place. Once again it's for fun.

     I guess what I’m saying is this: Don’t let your lack of mastery of the bushcraft list keep you from feeling valuable to the bushcraft community. Don’t let that feeling of not knowing the proper reverse lever, back fist, super duper knife grip make you learn something that is useless to you and worst of all, not fun. Don’t do it for acceptance. Do it for the love of doing it.

     For example, I host a set of challenges called the Hardwoodsman challenges on bushcrafusa.com.
You can check them out here if you're interested in them:
Hardwoodsman challenges
  Those of you who already know about those challenges are probably thinking, "hey Iz, you're a hypocrite because those challenges are nothing but one big list". That's true, they are. But I did those challenges initially for myself because they were fun. That's what I hope those who participate get out of it also, a good time in the woods.
    The last thing I want is for someone to follow that list, complete it, think they've arrived at some bushcraft milestone and look back and realize they had a miserable time doing it. Or worse yet, think they're all that because they did some cool stuff on video.

   That "list" isn't there to encourage people to do what I do or get some sort of qualification or credentials. It's there to encourage others to get involved, much like bushclass on that same site. Don't do it for acceptance (because it won't get you any more or less than if you don't do them), do it for the love of doing it.

 Now it could so happen that you feel that every skill on the bushcraft list is truly essential and fun, if that’s the case then proceed as planned. That's what I'd hope and love to see, so forget all my blithering because it doesn't apply to you.

     On the opposite side of the coin, if your ego is so big that your head can’t fit through the door because you've checked off all the skills on the list then I’m glad for you. I don’t want you coming through my door anyway.

God bless,
Iz